[RP TownTalk] Fwd: Cat Calls
Andrew Ninnemann
andrew.ninnemann at gmail.com
Wed Jun 17 13:50:35 UTC 2015
Hi Bruce,
Wow, you've rendered me speechless. I didn't really want to respond to
this, but I feel it is important for other members of the community to know
they are supported and to know there are others who feel as they do. Beyond
that, as another male, I don't want your response to somehow come to be
seen as representing all males.
Your comments about people hiding and not taking personal action to change
situations suggests you are completely unaware of the historical struggles
faced by marginalized groups of people, in this case women, in a generally
patriarchal society. Beyond that, you seem to not see that what YOU do is
not in any way a reference point for what someone else SHOULD do or is
necessarily capable of doing, especially, in the context of this dialogue,
given that you are a man. These comments could easily be seen as victim
blaming and in the context of these community conversations, I hope you are
able to see that in defending yourself you have become an implicit
supporter of the actions of these very people that you so clearly despise
(i.e., as you said "if someone grabbed my sisters ass or cat called, I
wouldn't want to be him"). Also, to let you in a little secret, women are
not the only people who may feel uncomfortable in public spaces, receive
sexual harassment, or face sexual assault or worse. So I hope you would do
the same for someone who grabbed your brother's ass, unless of course it is
your role as a man to protect women.
Next you use the, "Back in my day" storyline to explain just how much women
at present can't pull it together. These comments belie a complete lack of
understanding of the historical struggles of marginalized peoples (women,
people of color LGBTQ, and more) and the incredible cultural strides that
have been made to support these groups in the past ~55 years, which isn't
to suggest more work isn't needed. Your reference point to movies as
examples of how great things used to be only hurts your argument. I, too,
miss a time when women couldn't get a credit card, serve on a jury, go on
birth control, attend princeton and harvard, and earned 59 cents for every
dollar a man makes (for the sake of being clear, that was sarcasm).
I'm not sure any of this will stick with you, but I urge you to get past
some of your defensive and try to empathize with the members of your
community.
A last point is your comment regarding the poise with which tougher women
from back in the day were able to deal with difficulties. Personally, in
the past few days, I have seen a number of incredible women from our own
Riverdale Park deal with your insensitive comments with an incredible level
of poise and self-respect. I'm not surprised by that, mind you.
Andrew
On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 8:14 AM, Bruce Wernek <bruce.wernek at verizon.net>
wrote:
> Hi Sherri
>
> I'm sorry that you are shocked, but get over it. Frankly, if you think
> cat calls are serious harrassment, you've got a lot to learn. I've gotten
> worse on the street or in my car. This may be insensitive of me, but
> imagine someone an inch for your face yelling obscenties at you with such
> furvor that they are spitting all over you and you are toe toe with them.
> That's where I come from. I'm not going hide. I'm going to let folks know
> how I feel whether they like it or not and defend myself in earnest if
> necessary. Apparently, you don't feel that way and you would prefer that
> someone else does it for you. That's your call, but there are
> disadvantages with this approach as there are with mine. One thing is for
> sure, people respect you when you let them know how you feel. This
> certainly applies to cat calls and other forms of sexual harrassment.
>
> Things have changed a lot in the last ~55 years. When I was young, women
> were a lot tougher. They knew how to handle a difficult situation with
> grace and poise and still garner respect. You can get a feel for this if
> you watch some of the old movies. That's all gone now. It's too bad. I
> miss that subtle elegance I could never master.
>
> One thing is for sure, if someone grabbed my sisters ass or cat called, I
> wouldn't want to be him.
>
> Bruce
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Sheri Mattes Wake <smattes3 at gmail.com>
> To: Maureen <maureen.farrington at gmail.com>
> Cc: Mary Wheatley <mtwheat at gmail.com>; <towntalk at riverdale-park.org> <
> towntalk at riverdale-park.org>
> Sent: Tue, Jun 16, 2015 2:13 pm
> Subject: Re: [RP TownTalk] Cat Calls
>
> Hi All,
>
> I just wanted to say that I appreciate Jonathan's original post on
> catcalling and those that supported it. I have had the same harassment
> experiences (mostly on Queensbury) and while I do feel that it's a
> difficult type of harassment to police, that doesn't mean we should ignore
> the issue or that it's not worth talking about.
>
> Bruce.... wow. I am shocked by your insensitive words. Keep in mind this
> discussion is happening after 3 recent assaults. The problem with street
> harassment/sexual assault in this town is not limited to 1 construction
> site. And frankly, I'm not going to walk up to a construction site to
> address the issue even if it did happen there. I'm sure the police would
> advise against that. And since you haven't had the experience of vocal
> street harassment, I'll let you in on a little secret - It's demeaning and
> makes the person feel vulnerable. Not flattered, not attractive. I'm sure
> 90% of the readers realize this. It also happens very quickly. Since you
> haven't had these types of experiences, maybe you should pay extra
> attention to these emails you seem to think are pointless, to gain a little
> perspective. I recall chatting with you when my husband and I first moved
> in. You said it was a good thing that younger people were moving to this
> town. If you think it's a good thing, than you should also care about what
> the young women are facing on our streets. I've had bicyclists and men in
> trucks/cars yell, whistle, etc. and slow down to get a real good look, all
> within walking distance of my home. I've walked my dog with mace in my
> hand, worn bulky clothing on hot days, and avoided walking by myself. You
> once commented that you hadn't seen me walking my dog lately. That's
> right. You used to see me a lot more when we first moved in, around 5
> years ago. That was before I had experienced any of this harassment, that
> is difficult and sometimes embarrassing to talk about. And this was way
> before these women were assaulted. Sometimes raising awareness and knowing
> your neighbors support you is more powerful than leaving a voicemail to a
> construction company. Maybe one more person will pay attention if they see
> anyone being harassed or in an uncomfortable situation. In reality, we -
> you, me and our neighbors, are most likely to be the person that could
> provide help or support to someone on our streets being harrassed or
> assaulted before the cops would even be called. Knowing that women,
> children or men in our community could run to my door and find a safe place
> is important. And I hope others would do the same for me. That community
> awareness and support is something good that happens from discussions like
> this, something that the police and a construction foreman can't do.
>
>
>
> On Sun, Jun 14, 2015 at 7:32 PM, Maureen <maureen.farrington at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> It's funny, Bruce, because I have been heartened by this thread. Folks
>> are offering real solutions to what they are wanting to change, not just
>> complaining.
>>
>> -m
>>
>> On Jun 14, 2015, at 5:23 PM, "Bruce Wernek" < bruce.wernek at verizon.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Mary
>>
>> Why don’t you (and Ebbeler) go to the construction company where the
>> perpetrators (cat callers) work (I assume it’s on Maryland Ave) and talk to
>> the owner. Let him know this is a problem. I’m sure he will have a talk
>> with his employees to address it.
>>
>> I see a lot of complaining, but no one is doing anything about it. Have
>> you ever thought that this is the reason this sort of thing goes on. No
>> one cares enough to take any remedial action, even those most affected.
>> The Town, the State, and the Federal government cannot solve all of our
>> problems. Recall the first three words in the Constitution, “We the
>> People”. That includes every one of us in this great nation we call the
>> United States. “We the People” are responsible for what goes on in our
>> society not the government. It’s up to each and every one of us to do
>> our part, in this case, contacting the construction company to address this
>> issue.
>>
>> This is clearly a problem for you. Why don’t you do something about it.
>>
>> Bruce
>>
>>
>> *From:* towntalk-bounces at riverdale-park.org [
>> mailto:towntalk-bounces at riverdale-park.org
>> <towntalk-bounces at riverdale-park.org>] *On Behalf Of *Mary Wheatley
>> *Sent:* Sunday, June 14, 2015 8:44 AM
>> *To:* towntalk at riverdale-park.org
>> *Subject:* Re: [RP TownTalk] Cat Calls
>>
>> Re: Mr Wernek's comments on catcalling-
>>
>> I understand your perspective on the possible challenges of enforcing
>> unwanted, sexual verbal advances. However, your referring to it as a
>> "nuisance" for women, and stating you'd like to receive some yourself makes
>> me wonder if you're aware that 1 in 4 women will be sexually assaulted in
>> their life time. For many women, unwanted sexual advances are not just
>> words, but represent real potential threats to their safety (and can we
>> imagine why??).
>>
>> We should be concerned with the safety of all our citizens. Realistic
>> implementation is certainly worth talking about, but it should be done in a
>> context of respect that doesn't minimize the very real experience of women,
>> either who have been assaulted or who fear becoming a statistic.
>>
>> Realistically, how about if there's a place where women are being
>> targeted, the police focus on that site? I saw the construction site
>> mentioned- is this the Whole Foods area?
>>
>> Thank you.
>>
>> Mary
>>
>> On Sunday, June 14, 2015, <towntalk-request at riverdale-park.org> wrote:
>>
>> Send TownTalk mailing list submissions to
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>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>> than "Re: Contents of TownTalk digest..."
>>
>>
>> Today's Topics:
>>
>> 1. Sexual Assault on minor at Riverdale Plaza/CVS (Vernon Archer)
>> 2. Re: Sexual Assault on minor at Riverdale Plaza/CVS (Vernon Archer)
>> 3. Prince George's Gazette R.I.P. (Chris Currie)
>> 4. Re: Prince George's Gazette R.I.P. (Sarah Wayland)
>> 5. Re: Cat calls (euniverz at aol.com)
>> 6. Re: Cat calls (Bruce Wernek)
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2015 11:46:18 -0400
>> From: Vernon Archer <varcher at gmail.com>
>> To: TownTalk <TownTalk at riverdale-park.org>
>> Subject: [RP TownTalk] Sexual Assault on minor at Riverdale Plaza/CVS
>> Message-ID:
>> <CAMgQDE1Yvbg3C-k+CuggnpPf548T_B6M2mgC=
>> c9T6oEvWRYn6Q at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>
>> Friends and Neighbors,
>>
>> I want to share the following information from the town and county police
>> about a sexual assault on a child that occurred yesterday.:
>>
>> *The RPPD in cooperation with PGPD is investigating a sexual assault of a
>> minor that occurred on June 12, 2015 at the CVS Pharmacy located at 5707
>> Riverdale Rd. Riverdale Park, Md. *
>>
>> *For further information including the description and photograph of the
>> person of interest involved in this incident, please visit the RPPD
>> Facebook page accessible on the RPPD/Town webpage. *
>>
>>
>>
>> *Anyone having information that may assist with this investigation can
>> contact Det. Sgt. Garcia of the RPPD at 301-927-4343
>> <http://tel:301-927-4343> <3019274343 <http://tel:3019274343>>. If Sgt.
>> Garcia is not available, callers are encourage to leave their contact
>> information and Sgt. Garcia will return the call at his earliest possible
>> opportunity. David C. Morris Chief of PoliceRiverdale Park, Md. Keeping
>> our
>> town safe, clean and beautiful*
>>
>> --
>> Vernon Archer, Mayor
>> Town of Riverdale Park, Maryland
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>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2015 11:53:50 -0400
>> From: Vernon Archer <varcher at gmail.com>
>> To: TownTalk <TownTalk at riverdale-park.org>
>> Subject: Re: [RP TownTalk] Sexual Assault on minor at Riverdale
>> Plaza/CVS
>> Message-ID:
>> <
>> CAMgQDE3_YdOnzWSP1J5SHVWMRiO2P-+dBrLx14z49suwpHfR2w at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>
>> Opps, I just checked the Facebook page and spoke to police and as of this
>> minute the post is not up, but it should be shortly.
>>
>> On Sat, Jun 13, 2015 at 11:46 AM, Vernon Archer <varcher at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > Friends and Neighbors,
>> >
>> > I want to share the following information from the town and county
>> police
>> > about a sexual assault on a child that occurred yesterday.:
>> >
>> > *The RPPD in cooperation with PGPD is investigating a sexual assault of
>> a
>> > minor that occurred on June 12, 2015 at the CVS Pharmacy located at 5707
>> > Riverdale Rd. Riverdale Park, Md. *
>> >
>> > *For further information including the description and photograph of the
>> > person of interest involved in this incident, please visit the RPPD
>> > Facebook page accessible on the RPPD/Town webpage. *
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > *Anyone having information that may assist with this investigation can
>> > contact Det. Sgt. Garcia of the RPPD at 301-927-4343
>> <http://tel:301-927-4343> <3019274343 <http://tel:3019274343>>. If Sgt.
>> > Garcia is not available, callers are encourage to leave their contact
>> > information and Sgt. Garcia will return the call at his earliest
>> possible
>> > opportunity. David C. Morris Chief of PoliceRiverdale Park, Md. Keeping
>> our
>> > town safe, clean and beautiful*
>> >
>> > --
>> > Vernon Archer, Mayor
>> > Town of Riverdale Park, Maryland
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Vernon Archer, Mayor
>> Town of Riverdale Park, Maryland
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>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 3
>> Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2015 11:55:03 -0400
>> From: Chris Currie <crcurrie at gmail.com>
>> To: towntalk <towntalk at riverdale-park.org>
>> Subject: [RP TownTalk] Prince George's Gazette R.I.P.
>> Message-ID:
>> <
>> CAHfsXwo03S0uC_Exiam8zqAkD7n0ghNomHPf-7EemYFhoQ8Ciw at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>
>> Another local news source bites the dust ...
>>
>>
>> http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/gazette-papers-in-montgomery-prince-georges-to-close/2015/06/12/1ffc315e-112f-11e5-9726-49d6fa26a8c6_story.html
>>
>> Chris
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>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 4
>> Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2015 12:03:52 -0400
>> From: Sarah Wayland <sarah.wayland at gmail.com>
>> To: Christopher Currie <crcurrie at gmail.com>
>> Cc: towntalk <towntalk at riverdale-park.org>
>> Subject: Re: [RP TownTalk] Prince George's Gazette R.I.P.
>> Message-ID:
>> <
>> CAPUuQYm9zjDkP+PZ2j5zxh17-E7AUHKFUCs6MCdaT7xaFsC_0Q at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>
>> At least we still have the Hyattsville Life & Times! Seriously, I'm very
>> grateful to the Hyattsville Life & Times for providing local news coverage
>> (and great reporting.)
>>
>> http://hyattsvillelife.com/
>>
>> -Sarah
>>
>>
>>
>> Sarah Wayland, Ph.D. | www.GuidingExceptionalParents.com
>> <http://www.guidingexceptionalparents.com/>
>> Supporting students with learning differences & their families
>>
>> *Summer Weekend Workshops || **First Put On Your Own Oxygen Mask
>> <
>> http://raisingyourchallengingchild.com/2015July-OxygenMask-RiverdalePark.html
>> >
>> -
>> July 11 || **Raising Your Challenging Child
>> <http://raisingyourchallengingchild.com/2015July-RYCC-RiverdalePark.html>
>> -
>> July 18 & 25*
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Jun 13, 2015 at 11:55 AM, Chris Currie <crcurrie at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> > Another local news source bites the dust ...
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/gazette-papers-in-montgomery-prince-georges-to-close/2015/06/12/1ffc315e-112f-11e5-9726-49d6fa26a8c6_story.html
>> >
>> > Chris
>> >
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>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 5
>> Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2015 15:25:21 -0400
>> From: euniverz at aol.com
>> To: towntalk at riverdale-park.org
>> Subject: Re: [RP TownTalk] Cat calls
>> Message-ID: <14dee622d7b-1743-44ad at webprd-m58.mail.aol.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>
>>
>> Hear Hear, Jonathan.
>>
>> I'll add my two cents to yours.
>>
>> Adrianne Lefkowitz
>> Madison Street
>>
>>
>>
>> "Cat calls" are not protected speech.We can and do have rules on the
>> current books that make this a municipalinfraction.Section 50-11.3
>> (b)(3)Yelling, shouting, etc. - Yelling,shouting, or other similar activity
>> that annoys or disturbs the quiet, comfort,or repose of persons in any
>> office, dwelling, or anywhere else within theTown;I have yet to see
>> enforcement of this, yet I am sure if any female intown is asked she has
>> been harassed when walking down the major roads in townthe answer will
>> unanimously be 'yes.' Ask that same person what happens if theyleave their
>> grass a little long and I bet the answer will be 'a nice bright andshiny
>> code violation sticker.'I would love to see the town address thesafety of
>> women with equal tenacity as we do those pesky long lawns.Just mytwo
>> cents.JWE
>>
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>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 6
>> Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2015 07:26:03 -0400
>> From: "Bruce Wernek" <bruce.wernek at verizon.net>
>> To: <euniverz at aol.com>, <towntalk at riverdale-park.org>
>> Subject: Re: [RP TownTalk] Cat calls
>> Message-ID: <005401d0a694$e7fb4880$b7f1d980$@verizon.net>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>
>> I can't take it anymore.
>>
>>
>>
>> What are you proposing, 24/7 surveillance, policeman on every corner,
>> devoting police resources to the apprehension of these "criminals",
>> clogging
>> up the legal system with these types of infractions at the expense of more
>> serious crimes, etc? Clearly, this level of effort requires significantly
>> more policing and legal resources than currently available.
>>
>>
>>
>> Ask yourself these questions.
>>
>> 1) How can this type of infraction be policed?
>>
>> 2) What resources will be required for this activity?
>>
>> 3) Who is going to pay for it?
>>
>> 4) Is it worth the effort?
>>
>>
>>
>> I realize this is an issue and nuisance for women, but I can think of a
>> lot
>> more important things for our police department to be worried about.
>>
>>
>>
>> Frankly, I'd be thrilled if I got a few cat calls.
>>
>>
>>
>> Bruce
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> From: towntalk-bounces at riverdale-park.org
>> [mailto:towntalk-bounces at riverdale-park.org] On Behalf Of
>> euniverz at aol.com
>> Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2015 3:25 PM
>> To: towntalk at riverdale-park.org
>> Subject: Re: [RP TownTalk] Cat calls
>>
>>
>>
>> Hear Hear, Jonathan.
>>
>>
>>
>> I'll add my two cents to yours.
>>
>>
>>
>> Adrianne Lefkowitz
>>
>> Madison Street
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> "Cat calls" are not protected speech. We can and do have rules on the
>> current books that make this a municipal infraction. Section 50-11.3
>> (b)(3)
>> Yelling, shouting, etc. - Yelling, shouting, or other similar activity
>> that
>> annoys or disturbs the quiet, comfort, or repose of persons in any office,
>> dwelling, or anywhere else within the Town; I have yet to see enforcement
>> of
>> this, yet I am sure if any female in town is asked she has been harassed
>> when walking down the major roads in town the answer will unanimously be
>> 'yes.' Ask that same person what happens if they leave their grass a
>> little
>> long and I bet the answer will be 'a nice bright and shiny code violation
>> sticker.' I would love to see the town address the safety of women with
>> equal tenacity as we do those pesky long lawns. Just my two cents. JWE
>>
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>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> TownTalk mailing list
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>> http://www.riverdaleparkmd.info
>>
>> End of TownTalk Digest, Vol 107, Issue 13
>> *****************************************
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> marybirthdoula.wordpress.com
>>
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