[RP TownTalk] Fwd: Cat Calls
Andrew Ninnemann
andrew.ninnemann at gmail.com
Wed Jun 17 14:55:17 UTC 2015
Hi Bruce,
I am sorry that my tone came across as harsh, that was not my intent and so
for that I must apologize. In addition, while I was trying to respond
specifically to the content of your email, I do see there were instances
that I spoke beyond that. As you point out, these are things beyond my
knowledge, so again sorry for inaccurate assumptions there.
Andrew
On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 10:42 AM, Bruce Wernek <bruce.wernek at verizon.net>
wrote:
> Andrew
>
> I don't think we've never met. I don't appreciate your tone. You are
> very judgemental and have no right to do so. Clearly you have no idea what
> I'm talking about.
>
> What do you know about sexual harassment? I was there when it was common
> place yet you infer that I don't understand what it is among other things.
> How dare you make this inference and broadcast it over this email post. Do
> you know what slander is?
>
> Bruce
>
>
> On 06/17/15, Andrew Ninnemann<andrew.ninnemann at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Bruce,
>
> Wow, you've rendered me speechless. I didn't really want to respond to
> this, but I feel it is important for other members of the community to know
> they are supported and to know there are others who feel as they do. Beyond
> that, as another male, I don't want your response to somehow come to be
> seen as representing all males.
>
> Your comments about people hiding and not taking personal action to change
> situations suggests you are completely unaware of the historical struggles
> faced by marginalized groups of people, in this case women, in a generally
> patriarchal society. Beyond that, you seem to not see that what YOU do is
> not in any way a reference point for what someone else SHOULD do or is
> necessarily capable of doing, especially, in the context of this dialogue,
> given that you are a man. These comments could easily be seen as victim
> blaming and in the context of these community conversations, I hope you are
> able to see that in defending yourself you have become an implicit
> supporter of the actions of these very people that you so clearly despise
> (i.e., as you said "if someone grabbed my sisters ass or cat called, I
> wouldn't want to be him"). Also, to let you in a little secret, women are
> not the only people who may feel uncomfortable in public spaces, receive
> sexual harassment, or face sexual assault or worse. So I hope you would do
> the same for someone who grabbed your brother's ass, unless of course it is
> your role as a man to protect women.
>
> Next you use the, "Back in my day" storyline to explain just how much
> women at present can't pull it together. These comments belie a complete
> lack of understanding of the historical struggles of marginalized peoples
> (women, people of color LGBTQ, and more) and the incredible cultural
> strides that have been made to support these groups in the past ~55 years,
> which isn't to suggest more work isn't needed. Your reference point to
> movies as examples of how great things used to be only hurts your argument.
> I, too, miss a time when women couldn't get a credit card, serve on a jury,
> go on birth control, attend princeton and harvard, and earned 59 cents for
> every dollar a man makes (for the sake of being clear, that was sarcasm).
>
> I'm not sure any of this will stick with you, but I urge you to get past
> some of your defensive and try to empathize with the members of your
> community.
>
> A last point is your comment regarding the poise with which tougher women
> from back in the day were able to deal with difficulties. Personally, in
> the past few days, I have seen a number of incredible women from our own
> Riverdale Park deal with your insensitive comments with an incredible level
> of poise and self-respect. I'm not surprised by that, mind you.
>
> Andrew
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 17, 2015 at 8:14 AM, Bruce Wernek <bruce.wernek at verizon.net>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Sherri
>>
>> I'm sorry that you are shocked, but get over it. Frankly, if you think
>> cat calls are serious harrassment, you've got a lot to learn. I've gotten
>> worse on the street or in my car. This may be insensitive of me, but
>> imagine someone an inch for your face yelling obscenties at you with such
>> furvor that they are spitting all over you and you are toe toe with them.
>> That's where I come from. I'm not going hide. I'm going to let folks know
>> how I feel whether they like it or not and defend myself in earnest if
>> necessary. Apparently, you don't feel that way and you would prefer that
>> someone else does it for you. That's your call, but there are
>> disadvantages with this approach as there are with mine. One thing is for
>> sure, people respect you when you let them know how you feel. This
>> certainly applies to cat calls and other forms of sexual harrassment.
>>
>> Things have changed a lot in the last ~55 years. When I was young, women
>> were a lot tougher. They knew how to handle a difficult situation with
>> grace and poise and still garner respect. You can get a feel for this if
>> you watch some of the old movies. That's all gone now. It's too bad. I
>> miss that subtle elegance I could never master.
>>
>> One thing is for sure, if someone grabbed my sisters ass or cat called, I
>> wouldn't want to be him.
>>
>> Bruce
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Sheri Mattes Wake <smattes3 at gmail.com>
>> To: Maureen <maureen.farrington at gmail.com>
>> Cc: Mary Wheatley <mtwheat at gmail.com>; <towntalk at riverdale-park.org> <
>> towntalk at riverdale-park.org>
>> Sent: Tue, Jun 16, 2015 2:13 pm
>> Subject: Re: [RP TownTalk] Cat Calls
>>
>> Hi All,
>>
>> I just wanted to say that I appreciate Jonathan's original post on
>> catcalling and those that supported it. I have had the same harassment
>> experiences (mostly on Queensbury) and while I do feel that it's a
>> difficult type of harassment to police, that doesn't mean we should ignore
>> the issue or that it's not worth talking about.
>>
>> Bruce.... wow. I am shocked by your insensitive words. Keep in mind
>> this discussion is happening after 3 recent assaults. The problem with
>> street harassment/sexual assault in this town is not limited to 1
>> construction site. And frankly, I'm not going to walk up to a construction
>> site to address the issue even if it did happen there. I'm sure the police
>> would advise against that. And since you haven't had the experience of
>> vocal street harassment, I'll let you in on a little secret - It's
>> demeaning and makes the person feel vulnerable. Not flattered, not
>> attractive. I'm sure 90% of the readers realize this. It also happens
>> very quickly. Since you haven't had these types of experiences, maybe you
>> should pay extra attention to these emails you seem to think are pointless,
>> to gain a little perspective. I recall chatting with you when my husband
>> and I first moved in. You said it was a good thing that younger people
>> were moving to this town. If you think it's a good thing, than you should
>> also care about what the young women are facing on our streets. I've had
>> bicyclists and men in trucks/cars yell, whistle, etc. and slow down to get
>> a real good look, all within walking distance of my home. I've walked my
>> dog with mace in my hand, worn bulky clothing on hot days, and avoided
>> walking by myself. You once commented that you hadn't seen me walking my
>> dog lately. That's right. You used to see me a lot more when we first
>> moved in, around 5 years ago. That was before I had experienced any of
>> this harassment, that is difficult and sometimes embarrassing to talk
>> about. And this was way before these women were assaulted. Sometimes
>> raising awareness and knowing your neighbors support you is more powerful
>> than leaving a voicemail to a construction company. Maybe one more person
>> will pay attention if they see anyone being harassed or in an uncomfortable
>> situation. In reality, we - you, me and our neighbors, are most likely to
>> be the person that could provide help or support to someone on our streets
>> being harrassed or assaulted before the cops would even be called. Knowing
>> that women, children or men in our community could run to my door and find
>> a safe place is important. And I hope others would do the same for me.
>> That community awareness and support is something good that happens from
>> discussions like this, something that the police and a construction foreman
>> can't do.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Jun 14, 2015 at 7:32 PM, Maureen <maureen.farrington at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> It's funny, Bruce, because I have been heartened by this thread. Folks
>>> are offering real solutions to what they are wanting to change, not just
>>> complaining.
>>>
>>> -m
>>>
>>> On Jun 14, 2015, at 5:23 PM, "Bruce Wernek" < bruce.wernek at verizon.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Mary
>>>
>>> Why don’t you (and Ebbeler) go to the construction company where the
>>> perpetrators (cat callers) work (I assume it’s on Maryland Ave) and talk to
>>> the owner. Let him know this is a problem. I’m sure he will have a talk
>>> with his employees to address it.
>>>
>>> I see a lot of complaining, but no one is doing anything about it. Have
>>> you ever thought that this is the reason this sort of thing goes on. No
>>> one cares enough to take any remedial action, even those most affected.
>>> The Town, the State, and the Federal government cannot solve all of our
>>> problems. Recall the first three words in the Constitution, “We the
>>> People”. That includes every one of us in this great nation we call the
>>> United States. “We the People” are responsible for what goes on in our
>>> society not the government. It’s up to each and every one of us to do
>>> our part, in this case, contacting the construction company to address this
>>> issue.
>>>
>>> This is clearly a problem for you. Why don’t you do something about it.
>>>
>>> Bruce
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* towntalk-bounces at riverdale-park.org [
>>> mailto:towntalk-bounces at riverdale-park.org
>>> <towntalk-bounces at riverdale-park.org>] *On Behalf Of *Mary Wheatley
>>> *Sent:* Sunday, June 14, 2015 8:44 AM
>>> *To:* towntalk at riverdale-park.org
>>> *Subject:* Re: [RP TownTalk] Cat Calls
>>>
>>> Re: Mr Wernek's comments on catcalling-
>>>
>>> I understand your perspective on the possible challenges of enforcing
>>> unwanted, sexual verbal advances. However, your referring to it as a
>>> "nuisance" for women, and stating you'd like to receive some yourself makes
>>> me wonder if you're aware that 1 in 4 women will be sexually assaulted in
>>> their life time. For many women, unwanted sexual advances are not just
>>> words, but represent real potential threats to their safety (and can we
>>> imagine why??).
>>>
>>> We should be concerned with the safety of all our citizens. Realistic
>>> implementation is certainly worth talking about, but it should be done in a
>>> context of respect that doesn't minimize the very real experience of women,
>>> either who have been assaulted or who fear becoming a statistic.
>>>
>>> Realistically, how about if there's a place where women are being
>>> targeted, the police focus on that site? I saw the construction site
>>> mentioned- is this the Whole Foods area?
>>>
>>> Thank you.
>>>
>>> Mary
>>>
>>> On Sunday, June 14, 2015, <towntalk-request at riverdale-park.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Send TownTalk mailing list submissions to
>>> towntalk at riverdale-park.org
>>>
>>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
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>>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>>> than "Re: Contents of TownTalk digest..."
>>>
>>>
>>> Today's Topics:
>>>
>>> 1. Sexual Assault on minor at Riverdale Plaza/CVS (Vernon Archer)
>>> 2. Re: Sexual Assault on minor at Riverdale Plaza/CVS (Vernon Archer)
>>> 3. Prince George's Gazette R.I.P. (Chris Currie)
>>> 4. Re: Prince George's Gazette R.I.P. (Sarah Wayland)
>>> 5. Re: Cat calls (euniverz at aol.com)
>>> 6. Re: Cat calls (Bruce Wernek)
>>>
>>>
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 1
>>> Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2015 11:46:18 -0400
>>> From: Vernon Archer <varcher at gmail.com>
>>> To: TownTalk <TownTalk at riverdale-park.org>
>>> Subject: [RP TownTalk] Sexual Assault on minor at Riverdale Plaza/CVS
>>> Message-ID:
>>> <CAMgQDE1Yvbg3C-k+CuggnpPf548T_B6M2mgC=
>>> c9T6oEvWRYn6Q at mail.gmail.com>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>>
>>> Friends and Neighbors,
>>>
>>> I want to share the following information from the town and county police
>>> about a sexual assault on a child that occurred yesterday.:
>>>
>>> *The RPPD in cooperation with PGPD is investigating a sexual assault of a
>>> minor that occurred on June 12, 2015 at the CVS Pharmacy located at 5707
>>> Riverdale Rd. Riverdale Park, Md. *
>>>
>>> *For further information including the description and photograph of the
>>> person of interest involved in this incident, please visit the RPPD
>>> Facebook page accessible on the RPPD/Town webpage. *
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *Anyone having information that may assist with this investigation can
>>> contact Det. Sgt. Garcia of the RPPD at 301-927-4343
>>> <http://tel:301-927-4343> <3019274343 <http://tel:3019274343>>. If Sgt.
>>> Garcia is not available, callers are encourage to leave their contact
>>> information and Sgt. Garcia will return the call at his earliest possible
>>> opportunity. David C. Morris Chief of PoliceRiverdale Park, Md. Keeping
>>> our
>>> town safe, clean and beautiful*
>>>
>>> --
>>> Vernon Archer, Mayor
>>> Town of Riverdale Park, Maryland
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>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 2
>>> Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2015 11:53:50 -0400
>>> From: Vernon Archer <varcher at gmail.com>
>>> To: TownTalk <TownTalk at riverdale-park.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [RP TownTalk] Sexual Assault on minor at Riverdale
>>> Plaza/CVS
>>> Message-ID:
>>> <
>>> CAMgQDE3_YdOnzWSP1J5SHVWMRiO2P-+dBrLx14z49suwpHfR2w at mail.gmail.com>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>>
>>> Opps, I just checked the Facebook page and spoke to police and as of this
>>> minute the post is not up, but it should be shortly.
>>>
>>> On Sat, Jun 13, 2015 at 11:46 AM, Vernon Archer <varcher at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> > Friends and Neighbors,
>>> >
>>> > I want to share the following information from the town and county
>>> police
>>> > about a sexual assault on a child that occurred yesterday.:
>>> >
>>> > *The RPPD in cooperation with PGPD is investigating a sexual assault
>>> of a
>>> > minor that occurred on June 12, 2015 at the CVS Pharmacy located at
>>> 5707
>>> > Riverdale Rd. Riverdale Park, Md. *
>>> >
>>> > *For further information including the description and photograph of
>>> the
>>> > person of interest involved in this incident, please visit the RPPD
>>> > Facebook page accessible on the RPPD/Town webpage. *
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > *Anyone having information that may assist with this investigation can
>>> > contact Det. Sgt. Garcia of the RPPD at 301-927-4343
>>> <http://tel:301-927-4343> <3019274343 <http://tel:3019274343>>. If Sgt.
>>> > Garcia is not available, callers are encourage to leave their contact
>>> > information and Sgt. Garcia will return the call at his earliest
>>> possible
>>> > opportunity. David C. Morris Chief of PoliceRiverdale Park, Md.
>>> Keeping our
>>> > town safe, clean and beautiful*
>>> >
>>> > --
>>> > Vernon Archer, Mayor
>>> > Town of Riverdale Park, Maryland
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Vernon Archer, Mayor
>>> Town of Riverdale Park, Maryland
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>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 3
>>> Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2015 11:55:03 -0400
>>> From: Chris Currie <crcurrie at gmail.com>
>>> To: towntalk <towntalk at riverdale-park.org>
>>> Subject: [RP TownTalk] Prince George's Gazette R.I.P.
>>> Message-ID:
>>> <
>>> CAHfsXwo03S0uC_Exiam8zqAkD7n0ghNomHPf-7EemYFhoQ8Ciw at mail.gmail.com>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>>
>>> Another local news source bites the dust ...
>>>
>>>
>>> http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/gazette-papers-in-montgomery-prince-georges-to-close/2015/06/12/1ffc315e-112f-11e5-9726-49d6fa26a8c6_story.html
>>>
>>> Chris
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>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 4
>>> Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2015 12:03:52 -0400
>>> From: Sarah Wayland <sarah.wayland at gmail.com>
>>> To: Christopher Currie <crcurrie at gmail.com>
>>> Cc: towntalk <towntalk at riverdale-park.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [RP TownTalk] Prince George's Gazette R.I.P.
>>> Message-ID:
>>> <
>>> CAPUuQYm9zjDkP+PZ2j5zxh17-E7AUHKFUCs6MCdaT7xaFsC_0Q at mail.gmail.com>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>>
>>> At least we still have the Hyattsville Life & Times! Seriously, I'm very
>>> grateful to the Hyattsville Life & Times for providing local news
>>> coverage
>>> (and great reporting.)
>>>
>>> http://hyattsvillelife.com/
>>>
>>> -Sarah
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Sarah Wayland, Ph.D. | www.GuidingExceptionalParents.com
>>> <http://www.guidingexceptionalparents.com/>
>>> Supporting students with learning differences & their families
>>>
>>> *Summer Weekend Workshops || **First Put On Your Own Oxygen Mask
>>> <
>>> http://raisingyourchallengingchild.com/2015July-OxygenMask-RiverdalePark.html
>>> >
>>> -
>>> July 11 || **Raising Your Challenging Child
>>> <http://raisingyourchallengingchild.com/2015July-RYCC-RiverdalePark.html>
>>> -
>>> July 18 & 25*
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Jun 13, 2015 at 11:55 AM, Chris Currie <crcurrie at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> > Another local news source bites the dust ...
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/gazette-papers-in-montgomery-prince-georges-to-close/2015/06/12/1ffc315e-112f-11e5-9726-49d6fa26a8c6_story.html
>>> >
>>> > Chris
>>> >
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>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 5
>>> Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2015 15:25:21 -0400
>>> From: euniverz at aol.com
>>> To: towntalk at riverdale-park.org
>>> Subject: Re: [RP TownTalk] Cat calls
>>> Message-ID: <14dee622d7b-1743-44ad at webprd-m58.mail.aol.com>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>>
>>>
>>> Hear Hear, Jonathan.
>>>
>>> I'll add my two cents to yours.
>>>
>>> Adrianne Lefkowitz
>>> Madison Street
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "Cat calls" are not protected speech.We can and do have rules on the
>>> current books that make this a municipalinfraction.Section 50-11.3
>>> (b)(3)Yelling, shouting, etc. - Yelling,shouting, or other similar activity
>>> that annoys or disturbs the quiet, comfort,or repose of persons in any
>>> office, dwelling, or anywhere else within theTown;I have yet to see
>>> enforcement of this, yet I am sure if any female intown is asked she has
>>> been harassed when walking down the major roads in townthe answer will
>>> unanimously be 'yes.' Ask that same person what happens if theyleave their
>>> grass a little long and I bet the answer will be 'a nice bright andshiny
>>> code violation sticker.'I would love to see the town address thesafety of
>>> women with equal tenacity as we do those pesky long lawns.Just mytwo
>>> cents.JWE
>>>
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>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 6
>>> Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2015 07:26:03 -0400
>>> From: "Bruce Wernek" <bruce.wernek at verizon.net>
>>> To: <euniverz at aol.com>, <towntalk at riverdale-park.org>
>>> Subject: Re: [RP TownTalk] Cat calls
>>> Message-ID: <005401d0a694$e7fb4880$b7f1d980$@verizon.net>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>>
>>> I can't take it anymore.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> What are you proposing, 24/7 surveillance, policeman on every corner,
>>> devoting police resources to the apprehension of these "criminals",
>>> clogging
>>> up the legal system with these types of infractions at the expense of
>>> more
>>> serious crimes, etc? Clearly, this level of effort requires
>>> significantly
>>> more policing and legal resources than currently available.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Ask yourself these questions.
>>>
>>> 1) How can this type of infraction be policed?
>>>
>>> 2) What resources will be required for this activity?
>>>
>>> 3) Who is going to pay for it?
>>>
>>> 4) Is it worth the effort?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I realize this is an issue and nuisance for women, but I can think of a
>>> lot
>>> more important things for our police department to be worried about.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Frankly, I'd be thrilled if I got a few cat calls.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Bruce
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From: towntalk-bounces at riverdale-park.org
>>> [mailto:towntalk-bounces at riverdale-park.org] On Behalf Of
>>> euniverz at aol.com
>>> Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2015 3:25 PM
>>> To: towntalk at riverdale-park.org
>>> Subject: Re: [RP TownTalk] Cat calls
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Hear Hear, Jonathan.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I'll add my two cents to yours.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Adrianne Lefkowitz
>>>
>>> Madison Street
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "Cat calls" are not protected speech. We can and do have rules on the
>>> current books that make this a municipal infraction. Section 50-11.3
>>> (b)(3)
>>> Yelling, shouting, etc. - Yelling, shouting, or other similar activity
>>> that
>>> annoys or disturbs the quiet, comfort, or repose of persons in any
>>> office,
>>> dwelling, or anywhere else within the Town; I have yet to see
>>> enforcement of
>>> this, yet I am sure if any female in town is asked she has been harassed
>>> when walking down the major roads in town the answer will unanimously be
>>> 'yes.' Ask that same person what happens if they leave their grass a
>>> little
>>> long and I bet the answer will be 'a nice bright and shiny code violation
>>> sticker.' I would love to see the town address the safety of women with
>>> equal tenacity as we do those pesky long lawns. Just my two cents. JWE
>>>
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>>> http://riverdale-park.org/pipermail/towntalk/attachments/20150614/aef6a32f/attachment-0001.html
>>> >
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> TownTalk mailing list
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>>> http://riverdale-park.org/mailman/listinfo/towntalk
>>>
>>> For more information about Riverdale Park, visit
>>> http://www.riverdaleparkmd.info
>>>
>>> End of TownTalk Digest, Vol 107, Issue 13
>>> *****************************************
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> marybirthdoula.wordpress.com
>>>
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>> _______________________________________________TownTalk mailing listTo postto the list, send mail toTownTalk at riverdale-park.orgTownTalk-request@riverdale-park.org is forautomated subscription processingonlyhttp://riverdale-park.org/mailman/listinfo/towntalkFor moreinformation about Riverdale Park, visit http://www.riverdaleparkmd.info
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>>
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>
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