[RP TownTalk] TownTalk Digest, Vol 111, Issue 8

Tue Oct 13 14:28:28 UTC 2015

Hi Bruce -

Thank you for your response and checking out the articles.

The original topic that I was referencing was Ms. Cronk's reluctance to
call the police when a situation seems merely "weird" or "suspicious," as
opposed to an actual crime taking place.  I share her sentiment.  The
article that I cited succinctly summarized data that demonstrates that
racial bias does exist, even when we prefer that it didn't.  I believe that
existing racial bias should factor into when we decide to call the police
as lives are at stake.  You are correct, police are trained to respond to
hostile situations.  They are dealing with potentially violent situations
on a daily basis and are trained to respond accordingly.  The police are
armed and prepared for armed confrontation, thus the potential for lethal
violence is escalated.   If you do not summarily dismiss the research, my
point was that in snap judgment situations, we as individuals react and
respond with all of our society's inherent prejudices and stereotypes.

The reality is that unarmed Black and Brown people are more likely to die
at the hands of the police:

"An analysis of public records, local news reports and Guardian reporting
found that 32% of black people killed by police in 2015 were unarmed, as
were 25% of Hispanic and Latino people, compared with 15% of white people
killed."
<http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jun/01/black-americans-killed-by-police-analysis>

The reality is that Black and Brown people are more likely to be racially
profiled.  For example:

"A February 2009 study of traffic stops and searches in West Virginia found
a similar pattern of racial profiling. The data reveal that
African-American motorists were 1.64 times more likely to be stopped than
White drivers. Hispanics were 1.48 times more likely to be stopped. After
the traffic stop, non-Whites were more likely to be arrested, yet police in
West Virginia obtained a significantly higher contraband hit rate for White
drivers than minorities."
<http://www.civilrights.org/publications/reports/racial-profiling2011/the-reality-of-racial.html?referrer=https://www.google.com/>

My comment regarding police harassment and abuse not being "Your reality"
was in response to your own statements that police "are patriots fighting a
war" and they "will take care of you," as well as your incredulous response
to Ms. Cronk's comments about abuse of power and harassment in communities
of color.  This is not your reality as you have stated your experience in
this forum. It is not my reality either as a white woman.  I have had very
positive interactions with the police by and large, even when up to no good
in high school and college. This has not been the experience or reality of
some of my peers, mostly men and women of color.

To be clear, I am not indicting police or disparaging Riverdale's police
department. I have called them on several occasions, including after a
theft of personal property in my vehicle and when I witnessed a young man
seemingly in need and potentially trying to find an empty building. When I
called about the young man, I was careful to preface that he was a teen and
seemed like he might need assistance and be looking for a place to sleep.
I was concerned that I might put him in danger.  I myself have had very
positive interactions with R.P.D. and have seen them doing a ton of
outreach in the community at events like Riverdale Park Day. Police DO have
an incredibly hard job and are deserving of our respect.  That does not
mean that all police interactions are good or should be given a pass, or
that bias, harassment, and abuse of power do not exist.  Police in any
community represent and are extensions of the community.  Racial bias
exists in me even though I would prefer that it did not.  It exists in our
community, and thus it is logical to conclude that it might exist in our
police force and to take a moment and pause when we think we see something
"weird" and decide to bring power and weaponry into the equation.

Thanks again for the dialogue. I'll be signing off as my toddler does not
allow for many long digressions on list serves.

Regards,
Alison Spain

On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 8:35 AM, Bruce Wernek <bruce.wernek at verizon.net>
wrote:

> Alison
>
> I went through a couple of the references in this article for recreation.
> See below.
>
> Are Emily and Greg More Employable Than Lakisha andJamal? A Field
> Experiment on Labor Market Discrimination." *AmericanEconomic Review*,
> 2004
>
> The Effect of Race and Sexon Physicians' Recommendations for Cardiac
> Catheterization, 1999
>
> Race and Gender Discrimination in Bargainingfor a New Car, 1995
>
>
> Note the years of publication for these articles.  I question the validity
> of this data given it's age (10+ years).
>
>
> This information and your response below has nothing to do with the topic
> (police) we were discussing and I'm not sure what point you are trying to
> make.
>
>
> Bruce
>
>
>
> On 10/12/15, Alison Spain<alisonspain at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hello Bruce and all -
>
> If you follow the link to the NY Times article
> <http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/04/upshot/the-measuring-sticks-of-racial-bias-.html?_r=0>
>  each research study mentioned in the article is summarized, and then the
> author, Professor Mullainathan, links to the actual research and study,
> most which are published in peer-reviewed journals. For example, the study
> that states that when African Americans and Caucasians with identical
> resumes and training apply for the same low wage job, *"Their sobering
> finding was that African-American applicants with no criminal record were
> offered jobs at a rate as low as white applicants who had criminal
> records." *(Pager et al.)  The link in the article takes you to the paper
> in the* American Sodciological Review* and summarizes the findings,
> methodology, and stats.  So, if you'd like sources that aren't the usual
> media, there you go. I'd also offer that they are generally apolitical, as
> there are studies that indict Democratic politicians as much as Republicans
> and concede that there is a bias in college admissions that favors minority
> applicants.  I'm not sure why Prof. Mullainathan background as an economist
> disqualifies him from undertaking research in bias and discrimination,
> perhaps you could elaborate.
>
> What the studies do indicate and what I was trying to get at is that bias
> is unavoidable, no matter how well intentioned one is.  The article states
> it more eloquently, which is why I pulled that quote, here in fuller
> context:
>
> "When our own résumé study came out, many human-resources managers told us
> they were stunned. They prized creating diversity in their companies, yet
> here was evidence that they were doing anything but. How was that possible?
>
> To use the language of the psychologist Daniel Kahneman, we think both
> fast and slow. When deciding what iPod to buy or which résumé to pursue, we
> weigh a few factors deliberately (“slow”). But for hundreds of other
> factors, we must rely on intuitive judgment — and we weigh these
> unconsciously (“fast”).
>
> *Even if, in our slow thinking, we work to avoid discrimination, it can
> easily creep into our fast thinking.* Our snap judgments rely on all the
> associations we have — from fictional television shows to news reports.
> They use stereotypes, both the accurate and the inaccurate, both those we
> would want to use and ones we find repulsive."
>
> You are correct, you did not mention Riverdale's Police department
> specifically.  I don't believe Ms. Cronk was indicting police in general,
> either, but instead she chose to begin a dialogue around the very real
> risks presented to some by over-zealous policing.  *Some *police
> <http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2014/09/06/3564082/cop-who-allegedly-assaulted-7-black-women-released-from-jail/>
> do abuse their power.  This is a reality for *many *people and
> communities. It's not YOUR reality, but it doesn't make it not so.
>
> Alison Spain
>
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 5:02 PM, Bruce Wernek <bruce.wernek at verizon.net>
> wrote:
>
>> Alison
>>
>>
>>
>> “Statistics and empirical research prove time and time again prove that
>> racial bias exists”.  You cite statistics, what statistics?  This is an
>> anecdote if I’ve ever seen one.
>>
>>
>>
>> This is precisely the problem I was attempting to articulate earlier.
>> The media claims statistics prove that something is true yet they provide
>> no references so the reader can check them.  You are doing the same thing.
>> Again I say, what statistics?
>>
>>
>>
>> I don’t believe everything I read in the Washington  Post, New York
>> Times, Huffington Post, Fox News, etc.  I check multiple sources and
>> statistics if available before I make judgements on any issues.  Drudge
>> Report is a great source of news if you are interested.  They have articles
>> from multiple news sources from all over the world including the ones
>> mentioned above so you can do a little fact checking.
>>
>>
>>
>> To requote what you wrote below, "Even if, in our slow thinking, we work
>> to avoid discrimination, it can easily creep into our fast thinking. Our
>> snap judgments rely on all the associations we have — from fictional
>> television shows to news reports. They use stereotypes, both the accurate
>> and the inaccurate, both those we would want to use and ones we find
>> repulsive."
>>
>>
>>
>> Here’s some info on who wrote this article;
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sendhil_Mullainathan
>>
>> He’s an professor of economics at Harvard.  Clearly an expert on
>> discrimination.
>>
>>
>>
>> I do agree with what he says regarding the “snap judgements”.  Think
>> about that for a minute with respect to the police.
>>
>>
>>
>> BTW, I didn’t mention the Riverdale Police in my email.  Where did that
>> come from?
>>
>>
>>
>> Bruce
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* towntalk-bounces at riverdale-park.org [mailto:
>> towntalk-bounces at riverdale-park.org] *On Behalf Of *Alison Spain
>> *Sent:* Monday, October 12, 2015 3:51 PM
>> *To:* TownTalk <towntalk at riverdale-park.org>
>> *Subject:* Re: [RP TownTalk] TownTalk Digest, Vol 111, Issue 8
>>
>>
>>
>> Hello Neighbors -
>>
>>
>>
>> I appreciate the mostly respectful dialogue that has been taking place on
>> Town Talk regarding policing in our community.
>>
>>
>>
>> Regarding Mr. Wernek's message below, I don't believe Ms. Cronk impugned
>> or otherwise charged Riverdale's police force with any abuse of power or
>> harassment, merely stated her hesitance to call police under the premise of
>> seeing something "weird."
>>
>>
>>
>> I've been pulled over on numerous occasions in my 41 years, Mr. Wernek,
>> and only once have I received a speeding ticket.  As a college student and
>> young white woman, I was generally sent on my way with a warning, by white
>> and black police, even when there was clearly underage drinking and/or
>> other illegal behavior involved.  In fact, I have never feared for my
>> safety in my police encounters. My Black and Latino friends have not shared
>> this experience.  In high school, an Asian friend of my brother's, not even
>> 15, had a gun drawn on him and was put to the ground for some lesser
>> traffic offense.  In fact, the only time that I did not receive the help I
>> sought was for sexual harassment in college, when it was deemed my fault
>> for being with another woman, hiking together in the woods without male
>> friends, and therefore likely enticing harassment upon ourselves.
>>
>>
>>
>> These are anecdotes.  The reality is that your experience of "take care
>> of them and they will take care of you" is also an anecdote. Statistics and
>> empirical research prove time and time again prove that racial bias exists,
>> even when we don't want it to be so. That does not mean police are bad, or
>> that we are bad, but we are products of our environments and socialization,
>> and of racist media and stereotypes.  I was stunned to find myself afraid,
>> yes AFRAID, of a 4-year old African American boy who was a participant at
>> the non-profit where I taught art.  This is a non-profit that serves ONLY
>> African  American boys.  I am ashamed to admit this, of course, but as my
>> boss (an African American woman) at the program said when I told her what I
>> had thought, with much embarrassment, "Even Black people are afraid of
>> Black people."  Neither one of us believed or wanted to be programmed with
>> these kind of thoughts, but there we were, two lefty, anti-racist, do
>> gooder liberals, one white, one black, with all the same baggage as anyone
>> else in America.
>>
>>
>>
>> "Even if, in our slow thinking, we work to avoid discrimination, it can
>> easily creep into our fast thinking. Our snap judgments rely on all the
>> associations we have — from fictional television shows to news reports.
>> They use stereotypes, both the accurate and the inaccurate, both those we
>> would want to use and ones we find repulsive."
>>
>> http://www.
>> nytimes.com/2015/01/04/upshot/the-measuring-sticks-of-racial-bias-.html?_r=0
>>
>>
>>
>> When I moved to Riverdale two years ago, I had just arrived home when
>> police came through my neighborhood with weapons drawn in search of a
>> suspect who had presumably stolen a motorbike and crashed it. He was a
>> young, black male.  There are several young, black males in my
>> neighborhood, and I would think very carefully about risking their lives
>> for a stolen moped.  Google Tamir Rice and tell me you wouldn't.
>>
>>
>>
>> Again, thanks for the dialogue,
>>
>>
>>
>> Alison Spain
>>
>> Tuckerman St.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Message: 4
>> Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 07:17:11 -0400
>> From: "Bruce Wernek" <bruce.wernek at verizon.net>
>> To: "'Heather Cronk'" <heather.cronk at gmail.com>, "'Sarah Wayland'"
>>         <sarah.wayland at gmail.com>
>> Cc: TownTalk at riverdale-park.org
>> Subject: Re: [RP TownTalk] car break-in
>> Message-ID: <012601d104df$8ad04c60$a070e520$@verizon.net>
>>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Heather
>>
>> Flagrantly abuse their power, harass people of color?  I don?t think you
>> truly understand what police have to go through each and every day.
>>
>> Imagine being a member of the police force working a long shit (12 hours)
>> in an unsavory area in DC.  One minute your working a domestic, where a
>> husband is beating his wife and you are trying not to get into an
>> altercation with the drunken husband, a half hour later you get a ?shots
>> fired? and find a dead teenager laying in a pool of blood, later dealing
>> with a drunken disorderly spitting and screaming at the top of his lungs an
>> inch away from your face, next it?s a B and E where a distraught senior
>> couples apartment has been completely ransacked and everything of value has
>> been stolen.  On the way to the next call, you are diverted to discover an
>> infant in a dumpster followed by a fatal head on caused by a drug addled
>> driver who just killed a mother with her kids calling for her in the back
>> seat.  Imagine working in this environment day after day, week after week,
>> year after year.  Think of how this would affect you and what affect it
>> would have on your disposition and ?attitude??
>>
>> Stop parroting the media tripe and think about what these men and woman
>> have to go through.  In my opinion, they are patriots fighting a war they
>> cannot win.  They are no different than any other veteran of any other
>> war.  Protecting me and you from abject chaos often risking and losing
>> their lives to do so.  On top of that they are being vilified by folks like
>> you and the media.  Sure the police make mistakes, there?s collateral
>> damage, and there?s injustice from time to time, but this is war girl.
>> These men and woman aren?t playing in a sand box.
>>
>> I think it?s time to stop vilifying the police and start questioning the
>> media.  Their bias is in the stratosphere pretty much across the board.
>> The police are not the enemy, they are part of the community akin to your
>> neighbors.  That?s the ?attitude? all us should have not the one you
>> articulated below.  If you take care of them, they will take care of you.
>>
>> Bruce
>>
>>
>
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